| Author | Message | ||
| Striperswiper1
Senior Member Username: Striperswiper1 Post Number: 1066 Registered: 7-2000 |
The word on tidalfish is up to 50% of stripers caught below the bay bridge have sores or lesions. Furthermore there's some sort of microbacteria that can be transferred from the infected fish to an anglers hands or arms. There have been documented cases by doctors to support this theory, and some have actually lost fingers due to this bacteria. Pretty scary if this is true,huh! I fish the upper Chessy bay avidly, and there's been very little evidence of fish with sore or lesions in the upper bay. With the 45 day flats c+r season as well as the open season, I've caught only a few with pock marks out of @#$ estimated caught rockfish from my fishing logs. Do you think this is a chronic problem in the mid/lower bay? How about IR/rips. I have caught some badly infected rock at IR and the De bay rips over the years, but they seem to be very minimal to say the least. What do you think? Mark J | ||
| Hatterwayne
Senior Member Username: Hatterwayne Post Number: 308 Registered: 4-2000 |
Not sure whether this article was posted on here before or not :-) http://www.bayjournal.com/02-04/rockfish.htm#header | ||
| Striperswiper1
Senior Member Username: Striperswiper1 Post Number: 1067 Registered: 7-2000 |
Nice link HW. If you read closely about the menhanden decline, we ALL know what happened to the unregulated(by NMFS) menhaden stocks over the past years. Just in the past with other species, they finally START to take action just as the stocks bottom out. I believe this is one reason why the rockfish are suffering, malnutrition. You can't blame the recs, crab decline or any other BS for this one guys. Support the RFA, I believe they had a big hand in getting the bunker bill passed in Jersey. Do you guys want these fish stocks to continue for your kids? Mark J | ||
| Duckman
New member Username: Duckman Post Number: 9 Registered: 6-2002 |
I was told by a well known and respected scientist (does more fish research in the Ches than anyone) that you shouldn't mess with any fish you catch that have sores or "lesions" on them. He told me that rockfish, croaker, and white perch seem to be the most affected species. They can easily transmit the disease as they are packed tight together most of the time in schools. Im not entirely sure on the microbacterium issue I am almost positive that this is more closely related to a virus. In any case, don't touch the sores especially if you have any open cuts or anything on your hands...and be sure to wash your hands with some sort of antibacterial agent after handling an affected fish. Isn't it nice that we have wonderful things like this to worry about when we fish.... | ||
| Jay_little
Moderator Username: Jay_little Post Number: 67 Registered: 6-2002 |
Myron are you out there? This is your field!!! A comment from a scientist of your stature would be appreciated. Are variant Mycobacteriae in your fatty acid inventory for Midi systems? | ||
| Bobw
Senior Member Username: Bobw Post Number: 715 Registered: 7-2000 |
I have seen plenty of stripers with the red spots in the Del Bay and southern coast over the years. Haven`t wittnessed to many with open sores. I don`t know many fishermen who don`t have cuts or opens of the hands. Lets be careful and carry some anti bacterial agent on board. This is another reason to use barbless hooks. Just pull the fish up the boat and shake it off without touching it. BB | ||
| Dana
Member Username: Dana Post Number: 114 Registered: 7-2000 |
Mark, I have picked up 2 stripes in the SS1 hole with lesions severe enough that I didn't consider keeping them. Back in May when I was hitting the perch hard, I also got a few with lesions. The perch only had 1 or 2, the stripes had a lot. Dana | ||
| Myron
Junior Member Username: Myron Post Number: 82 Registered: 3-2001 |
Okay Jay, you lured me out of hiding (writing a grant proposal). We did analyze this organism two years ago and agree that it is a new species of Mycobacterium. (My company makes a system which identifies bacteria, including Mycobacterium tuberculosis and its relatives). One additional tentative name is Mycobacterium chesapeakii (sp?), but until the paper is published, nothing is official. It has many of the characteristics of M. marinum and of M. ulcerans by growing only at lower temperatures (about 30C)and causing surface lesions which may then go more internal in fish, but not likely internal in humans due to the low probability of growth at the human body temperature of 37C. It is NOT closely related to Mycobacterium tuberculosis despite some earlier reports that the mycolic acid (really big fatty acids from the bacterial wall) pattern is similar. The overall profile "looks" similar, but our software indicates that the compounds are different sizes from those of TB and thus more closely related to M. fortuitum. Enough microbiology, best bet is to follow the advice of Bucktail Bob about going barbless and not handling the fish at all or of Duckman about not handling fish with lesions. In 2000 and 2001, I caught 10+ stripers in IRI with lesions which were obvious enough to make me not handle them. However, I agree with Mark J. that I haven't seen this during the C&R season on the flats. I wouldn't stop fishing for striper because of this, but would hesitate to keep a fish with such lesions. An interesting article: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol7no5/pdf/rhodes.pdf Regards to all, myron | ||
| Witness
Advanced Member Username: Witness Post Number: 239 Registered: 7-2000 |
This is all an interesting read, I must admit. Thanks for all the "food for thought"! | ||
| Striperswiper1
Senior Member Username: Striperswiper1 Post Number: 1071 Registered: 7-2000 |
Myron thanks for the informative post! What do you think about the stripers food source being depleated(as I talked earlier about the menhaden decline) making them succeptable to this new bacteria due to malnurishment. Do you think the abundance of food in the Susky, IE shad frye, perch, bluegill has had an impact on lower numbers of stripers with lesions or sores. Remember, last year we had a record shad spawn, and the river is absolutely loaded with frye last fall and spring. I must admit I caught one sickly rock this morning, out of an estimated 25-30 caught on plugs and jigs. This thread was fresh in my mind and I carefully slid the rock off with pliers. Keep in mind estimates of 1/2 rock with lesions in the mid/lower bay where food his harder to find. Mark J | ||
| Onebluelew
Member Username: Onebluelew Post Number: 128 Registered: 8-2000 |
I saw one at I.R. last night with it's tail end looking nasty. Why is it at the inlet most of them have the lesions down by there tails, looks like a better blood supply by the gills. | ||
| Charlietuna
Senior Member Username: Charlietuna Post Number: 834 Registered: 7-2000 |
The Devil made me do it: "Those same lesions have been seen on tuna, up to 50%, found around the deck of the Starboard. Indications are that closely packed schools of tuna, without a decent food supply and subjected to alcohol-tainted water, become agressive and are known for frienzied feedings at the Hot Dog. Reports of discolored scales, slime and open lesions are common. Their tails appear lumpy and tuberous, and tuber analysis performed by Myron's lab indicates cellulite." | ||
| Jay_little
Moderator Username: Jay_little Post Number: 73 Registered: 6-2002 |
Thanks Myron, Explained masterfully. I am just amazed @ the resources we have on this board. | ||
| Ninja
Senior Member Username: Ninja Post Number: 624 Registered: 7-2000 |
All stripers I have been catching and keeping lateley around Lewes Harbor are looking real good. No sores or lessions to speak of. Usually this time of year the stripers in the inlet will start showing small red pock marks near their tails. Thanks Myron for the explanation, and always its good to hear from you. | ||
| Drsnow
New member Username: Drsnow Post Number: 7 Registered: 8-2000 |
I want to thank Eric and Jay for ironing out the bugs with the new format. Have been trying to return back but my computer seemed like could not communicate with this system. My computer competence is weak and anything beyond default mode is challeging to me. I also did not want to hear of how everyone was catching fish while I'm busy working all week to attempt to get caught up. Daylight should be in a week or so and ready to join you guys if any fish are left. Have received at least a dozen viruses from fellow board members so if I have not responded to some of your emails. Ive been a little cautious.Had to respond to Mark's worry on fish lesions that brought me to open this thread. I have not read most of the messages posted the last month? so need a little catching up over a PBR.Reading over the replys everyone is in agreement to be careful on handling fish with any evidence of sores. I am guilty like many others in bringing one cooler with ice and placing fish along side of your drinks. Not only may you end up with "fishermans disease/rash" on your skin but if contamination of Mycobacterium in your pulmonary system occurs , Jay may end up with you as a specimen.Myron thanks for informing us on the scientific end and glad to know that the species we are dealing with has a different fatty acid arrangement than Mt. I spent a lot of time with Mt trying to break that external sheath for decon operations. BB's suggestion using antimicrobial soap would not be effective. Maybe we all need to carry some bleach or hydrogen peroxide with us to clean up if exposed to some of the lesions. Duckman welcome to the board and your comments on possible viral needs to be addressed also. April 97 was the first identified fish event kill at Shelltown on the Pocomoke Sound. Catfish, croaker menhaden and perch with lesions and attributed to the toxic dinflagellate phase of Pfisteria piscidia received national attention. Many scientists came to work on the problem. A close friend of mine Dr. Demas was one. He helped to sample and handle the lessioned fish.Christmas week 3 years ago and having just received a major grant to work on the problem he gets a viral flu (from the fish) and dies during the night along side his wife. Both in their forties. Duckman, As for me a virus is not completely out of the picture. Now for the promising picture. His research is about to be carried on and his wife and former pupil of mine will be contributing to the effort. A top notch researcher from Woods Hole has been working in Australia the past 10 years on fish lessions by Mycobacterium and with Pfisteria related kills. Identical scenario as with the Chesapeake Bay. His work culminated there with success on identifying organisms and environmental conditions necessary for an outbreak.In may this year he was hired as thevice president for science application to the Center For Environmental Science with the Chesapeake Bay Research Lab and will be working out of Horn Point.Evidently he has full wingspan to do whatever needs to be done from the govenor. Two weeks after entering this country ,I was asked to attend a reseach meeting at Horn Point. Four or five of us attended and eventually ended up at the shore line at Shelltown after a long roundhouse discussion at the rearch center. Long story short and is premature and not my research to let out yet. Hope to be part of his team.If similiar to the Australian events and probably is, several pathogens and hosts plus specific environmental conditions trigger a chain reaction. Striperswiper's observation of less lesions north of baybridge is in agreement with the Australian studies. Once corrected, we are not talking years for Mother Nature to heal herself. Hi to everyone Phil | ||
| Myron
Junior Member Username: Myron Post Number: 84 Registered: 3-2001 |
Phil, thanks for your excellent input. If my lab can be of help with the mycobacterial problem, we will be happy to do so in the interest of better fishing (and health) for all of us. We don't do Pfisteria or cellulite (thanks anyway Martin, but you were probably thinking of your ex girlfriend). myron | ||
| Charlietuna
Senior Member Username: Charlietuna Post Number: 844 Registered: 7-2000 |
DrSnow, I'm not questioning your story, but I'm having some difficulty with understanding how a water-borne bacterium creates a pulmonary virus in humans. The two aren't even related, unless you're saying he contracted a bacterium infection, that in turn, weakened his immune system enough that he incurred a viral infection also. And since, as a student, I'm getting some real comments about pathogenic commutation (if that's the right term), i have some other questions. I know it's possible for bacteria to be able to adapt to other types of hosts readily, as bacteria are self-sustainable. But how is it possible for a virus to go from a fish to human host and survive? Such occurances are extremely rare, like mad cow disease or Nile virus, and then the probability of infection is still extremely low. I can see no "probable" way a virus can readily exist in a fish and a human host, nor can I comprehend having a cut on one's hand and handling an infected fish is going to result in commutation of the virus. And I didn't even mention a virus that thrives on the outside of a fish in a water environment, making contact to air (human) and surviving. SUPERVIRUS! Saddam must have invented it. A little more discourse is appreciated from an inquisitive student. | ||
| Striperswiper1
Senior Member Username: Striperswiper1 Post Number: 1077 Registered: 7-2000 |
Here's a scary thought, what are the com's doing with these infected fish from the Chessy bay in their pound nets during open season. Are they sorted individually and tossed back or thrown into a bin a filleted? A little something to think about! Hey Myron I was hoping to see you down on the Susky this morning. The action was not as hot as Wed, but I still managed 12 or so to around 24" Mark j | ||
| Drsnow
New member Username: Drsnow Post Number: 8 Registered: 8-2000 |
Martin, Sometimes I speak, write and think all one thing and somehow on more than one occasion (especially with the opposite sex) gets misinterpreted.First, Myron mentioned that the ideal temp for Mycobacterium that infects the fish is 30C and thus should not thrive and be a hazard to humans running at 37C.Your question how can a waterborne organism become an airborne aeorsol to be inhaled into the pulmonary system.Now we are talking covert activities and delivery systems which can be simple as contaminating the top of a coke/beer can with fish slime by placing contaminated fish in the same cooler. This is the point I was trying to get across. Once in the mouth, a threshold number may enter the lungs and thus a pulmonary infection.Since the fish is weakened the nutrient rich petri sore will likely contain other colonies of pathogenic organisms that will be at humans risk. Even if the organism is not viable their toxin is just as deadly.Cooking the fish well will destroy most organisms and degrade their toxins, but the thought is not to appetizing to me. | ||
| Kfish
New member Username: Kfish Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2002 |
Is anyone else getting hungry? | ||
| Charlietuna
Senior Member Username: Charlietuna Post Number: 847 Registered: 7-2000 |
Next on the menu at Striperbites: "Poached Striper Sores, with a heavy creme sauce of scalded pustules" | ||
| Duckman
New member Username: Duckman Post Number: 10 Registered: 6-2002 |
Do you think it would be safe to say that the vast majority of fishermen are uninformed or perhaps uneducated to the possible dangers of handling these infected fish?????? Food for thought. | ||
| Striperswiper1
Senior Member Username: Striperswiper1 Post Number: 1078 Registered: 7-2000 |
I agree duckman.I don't see the DNR doing much to educate the public. Does anybody have any input on the commercial harvest and selling of these infected fish? Would you want to buy these fish at your local seafood store, not knowing if they were infected? Remember, estimates show 1/2 infected below the BB. It sounds like if the media got going on this, there'd be a ruckus on eating fish just as the major pfisteria outbreak a few years ago. Even Tuna sales went down for god's sake. Hey CT only 3 SMALL rock this morning, I hate post front days!!!! Mark J | ||
| Charlietuna
Senior Member Username: Charlietuna Post Number: 850 Registered: 7-2000 |
Wading? Or Yaking? Duckman and SS1, you're correct, but I don't think there's enough known yet linking fish diseases to humans to make official comments. Conversely, I also think some of the "No Eating Fish from These Waters" thing is crapola, and a CYA thing without strong substantiation as to the toxicological effects in humans. You can bet I'm not going to keep any fish that looks funky, nor will I be touching sores on the fish...GROSS! | ||
| Duckman
New member Username: Duckman Post Number: 11 Registered: 6-2002 |
That's my point exactly Tuna, I don't think half of these "tucks" that come down here and fish on the weekends would even know what to look for on an infected fish....all Im saying is that I think either DNR or F&W or someone needs to make this public and post at least basic information about what is known and what is not about these bacteria/virus'. I mean Im not talking outbreak stuff here, but it would be better from the fishermans standpoint to take small preventative measures from the git-go. Can you imagine what would happen if there was a string of people getting sick from sored-up fish...the media would turn s*&! into a fiasco. | ||
| Gofish
New member Username: Gofish Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2002 |
I know for a fact from helping watermen on the Chesapeake that when they are netting in the winter or Hook and Lining in the summer the Rock that do have lessions on them go to market !!! I have questioned several times wether or not they were safe and always got the same answer "sure they are". I was not always sure what they were, this post has really helped. The commercial guys look at a fish totally different than the rec guys all they see is $$$$. From being close friends with a lifetime waterman I can see both sides of the coin and I feel for them trying to make a living but something has to be done to assure that those fish don't make it to market when the public is not aware what they are eating! | ||
| U2racer
Member Username: U2racer Post Number: 102 Registered: 8-2000 |
okay!!! that's it!!!!!! nothing but coors lite and potato chips from now on!!!!!! | ||
| Chiefmikey
Junior Member Username: Chiefmikey Post Number: 96 Registered: 4-2002 |
WOW, that was some heavy reading. Seems to me it gives you one more reason to go out and catch your own. Tends to make me shy away from eating any fish I haven't caught.U2racer, better switch to pretzels, lastest reports say potato chips and french fries cause cancer. Is nothing sacred anymore. | ||
| Striperswiper1
Senior Member Username: Striperswiper1 Post Number: 1082 Registered: 7-2000 |
Gofish, that's pretty much the answer that I came up with on comm's keeping fish with sores. They don't have to eat them, and the public will never know by buying the filletes in the fish store. Chief, I agree also! Mark J | ||
| Jay_little
Moderator Username: Jay_little Post Number: 100 Registered: 6-2002 |
Has anyone caught any of these stripers with lesions this summer? | ||
| U2racer
Member Username: U2racer Post Number: 108 Registered: 8-2000 |
jay, my buddy and i pulled a few out of iri friday a.m. and they were covered with little red marks... i would estimate half the size of a thumb tack head...are they lesions?????? i put them all back....we caught 6 and 5 of them had those marks | ||
| Jay_little
Moderator Username: Jay_little Post Number: 103 Registered: 6-2002 |
U2, I really don't know the answer to that. I was under the impression that the sores were larger but maybe your fish are in the beginning stage of infection. I figure that you were wise to release the fish, as a matter of caution. I have a thought though why are these sores only reported on Stripers and not weakfish and such. | ||
| Jay_little
Moderator Username: Jay_little Post Number: 104 Registered: 6-2002 |
Now here is something I saw for the first time this year..... Lampreys on Stripers !!!  | ||
| Striperswiper1
Senior Member Username: Striperswiper1 Post Number: 1087 Registered: 7-2000 |
U2 I've caught many like that over the years. They don't look like the bigger lesions, but smaller "pock marks" which are still imbedded within the scales of the fish. Is this what you saw? Bad news! Earlier in this post I stated the fish I've been catching were pretty healthy from the Susky. In the last few weeks, I've noted more fish (somewhere about 20%) have had lesions or marks. This is also the word from other prominent anglers that fish the river, especially the dam were I saw a few thrown back Sat morning. During this period the water temps have risen from the mid 60's to the mid and upper 70's. What do you scientific types think about this particular strain of bacteria spreading more rapidly in the warmer water temps? Just a thought?? I still stand by my comments of very few fish(out of a large sample) with lesions in the spring flats season. Keep in mind, the water temps ran from 50-62 degrees during the season. | ||
| U2racer
Member Username: U2racer Post Number: 109 Registered: 8-2000 |
yep mark, that's what they were.i'm so freaked out right now i don't know what to keep!!!!myron has me all nurotic (sp) after he took my friend and i on a tour of his facility this spring.10 years of therapy right down the tubes after 10 minutes with myron. (lol) | ||
| Duff2
Intermediate Member Username: Duff2 Post Number: 170 Registered: 3-2001 |
Jay Maybe you've seen lampreys on other fish. but; I find loads of lampreys on shad in the spring. I was told this is just a natural thing. I don't see any others in the upper river after spring except dead ones. I have found some dead one 3 ft long. You should see the jaws on them ! Duff | ||
| Bobw
Senior Member Username: Bobw Post Number: 733 Registered: 7-2000 |
Duff,how big is the head/jaws on one that size.Didn`t know they got that big. Bob | ||
| Duff2
Intermediate Member Username: Duff2 Post Number: 171 Registered: 3-2001 |
I was surprised myself. The largest one I've seen alive was about 18 inches. This large dead one was about 30 inches I'd say. The jaws were a good 2 inches in diameter. The teeth were 1/4 inch high above the jaw. The jaw and teeth were one. They were two semicircle thin pieces of bone, and looked like they were stampped out of a piece of hard plastic. I was thinking about keeping the jaw but I couldn't get passed the smell. This thing was evil looking. Duff | ||
| Bobw
Senior Member Username: Bobw Post Number: 734 Registered: 7-2000 |
Yea Duff,Iv`e seen small ones,4", and even those little buggers are nasty looking. |